Welcome to the More Business More Life® podcast. And today I have Jonas, the founder and creator of Ora Cacao. And it’s so near and dear to my heart because it’s been a part of, for those of you that have been following my healing from the Guillain–Barré syndrome, but also me as a leader, it’s opened my mind, my heart and my energy level on creativity so that I can be a better leader and also be a better father, be a better husband.

And on top of that, we’re going to talk about how does this happen chemically? We’re going to talk about the farming of cacao. We’re going to talk about how this cacao is different than other cacaos and why and how it makes such a great impact and been such a great impact on my life. And we’re going to cover so many things you’re going to want to listen in.

So let’s jump in and welcome Jonas. Thanks for being here. Thanks, Steve. Really honored to be here. It’s so good. This is kind of feeling like an official thing that we’re starting to do, even though it’s been unofficial or whatever you want to call it for so many years, because it’s been so easy for me to share your work with the world because of the great impact it’s made on my life.

And so having Ora Cacao in my life has helped me in so many ways, even before I went through my medical episode with Guillain–Barré syndrome, which is attacking the nervous system. And we know how much fat is needed to recover in that. And so bringing so many good fats and then even a carrier of all the minerals, and then I’ve also added a lot of mushrooms.

And so you put that with cacao. It’s like, so,  I mean, I didn’t mean to start off right with a commercial, but it’s so, this is like real in the heart. And so, I mean, the first thing is just huge gratitude for you being inspired to do this work. Thank you, Steve. It’s my pleasure and honor to do this work.

I mean, in the same way that you naturally just share the cacao with everybody that you come in touch with, like, that’s why I started making it. Because I was like, this is changing my life. This is a profound medicine, and I didn’t even know to the degree that you could make it. Which it would impact my life, you know, but I just kept taking it one step at a time and through people like yourself, it’s grown and gotten out there.

And that’s like, that’s the spirit of the cacao. It’s it’s heart centered and it’s healing and it wants to be shared. So thank you. It’s yeah, it’s again, my pleasure and you’re welcome. And it’s, and so I think today we’re going to talk about so many different things because the aspect of the healing part, the aspect of activating our energy in our good work and the planet, and because both of us know other founders and CEOs and entrepreneurs that.

You know, they want that good energy, not, you know, something superficial or short lived or overstimulated. And to have that grounding creative spirit with the cacao into your work is, uh, is so, so beautiful. Yeah, I couldn’t imagine being an entrepreneur without Cacao these days, and I’m sure you agree, because it’s just so supportive of all the, you know, both the creative highs and then the like day to day operational challenges that it takes to run a company and, and like bring our hearts into the world and expose our hearts to the world, you know, that needs to happen.

Some pretty intense nervous system regulation and a strong self care practice and having come from the tech world in San Francisco Bay Area and, and, and startups and like lived that pace and that lifestyle, even doing sustainable things. It like burned me out and I realized I can’t, it’s not sustainable to be burning ourselves out either.

So there needs to be a more holistic integration in the culture of doing the work that we’re passionate about. It’s so huge. Like what you just said, uh, brings up multiple things. So we’ll have to go in there because I want to talk about love and business. Cause some people think that that those shouldn’t be together.

Like people have actually said that to me. So I want to bring that, but then also let’s start with the fast pace. Cause obviously. My trademark and this show More Business More Life® is about that. It’s the end. It’s that we can do this good business and do the good work on this planet. Well, we also have our life and I too,  I grew up in Silicon Valley.

You know, started multiple companies. And I did have a saying, I’ll sleep when I die. Like, I mean, that’s how I’m going to be honest. That’s how bad it was. And it wasn’t just the drive to make money. Obviously, I wanted to be profitable to keep things going, but I was very passionate about my work. And so the initial thought is I’m so passionate, like I’ll just work.

And so. It actually did make it feasible, but it was not healthy at all. And I think you just brought that up. You know, we both have had those episodes where we’re working too far to the point where we’re affected. So maybe can you share a little bit of what it was like before you had all of these AHA’s just so people can get an idea.

Like a comparing contrast from where we’re going to go. Like, what was it like when you were in that Silicon Valley fast pace? I mean, 60 to 80 hour work weeks, like very little self care. Like my, my work was who I was completely. And, I loved it, but also like at times I was like, what am I doing? You know?

And I was, It’s experiencing multiple health issues, um, particularly, uh, chronic headaches. Really migraines is the more appropriate word for years and, and just on the side, you know, I, looked into various treatments, but ultimately it was stress. It was too much stress and not enough sleep. And I also had some chronic knee pain from injuries earlier in my life that I, you know, was ignored.

I wasn’t making the time or space to take care of my body and I was in my 20s and you know, Youth is lost on people. So it was a time that I could do that. Yeah, but it just It didn’t make sense. Yeah, and I could relate to that because it was my from 19 to 31 So the whole 20s that 12 year period was like my sacrifice years.

I to the point where I was overweight like 290 pounds like you can’t even imagine because now I usually run like 185 190. So like a hundred pounds and then having heart palpitations. I remember at 31. I went home and I was married at this point now. And I thought I was having a heart attack and my wife was able to calm me down.

It was like a panic attack, but it was all the stress, all the things. And I was eating maybe like one meal a day. Cause I wouldn’t even skip the meals to keep working. And it wasn’t like a stupid, like I wasn’t like, I guess maybe I was stupid and insane, but it was the passion going back to what you said, I, I was all in on the mission and then, but I was like, and that doesn’t work because we talk about sustainability.

All the time on our planet and in modern society, yet so many of us are not working in sustainable ways. And nor was I, like, I was on my way for a short, short life. Yeah, totally. And it’s, you know, it’s not just the technology that needs to be sustainable, it’s the culture. It’s how we treat each other and how we treat ourselves and our health and all those, because that, that affects everything that we create.

Yeah. And um, I actually forgot to mention that. I also have very little room for my emotional space, you know, I had a little room for that like expansive for dreams for for all the things that actually drive and feed creativity and and that are also really important parts of the human experience. I was just shoving all that aside, suppressing it down.

And that’s where like long term health crises come from to, you know, if you’re not tending to your emotional state. And like having room for discharge and healing and, and, and long term trauma work and all of that. It, and even the day to day, the long term absolutely. And the day to day, because you, from just adding on, I know I was not the happiest person some of the days.

And I suppose with the migraines or I just know I didn’t have as much, um, I guess, uh, I’m looking, I’m missing the word, but you know, it’s the, you know, Patience, I guess that’s the word I mean, because you’re like so exhausted, tired. And so if you know, my patience wasn’t as there, and I know that I would lose my cool sometimes, and I pro I probably mistreated people and I’ve everyone I can, I try to apologize for those early days, but I wasn’t always the happiest person because I was under so much stress.

And I can only, and I know that so clearly because I can compare it now. It’s all the compassion I have. And you know, no matter what we’re doing, if someone needs me, like I drop everything and I’m there for them. And that just wasn’t possible in my twenties. I’m like, I got to get the next thing. I’m so sorry.

You’re feeling that way, but let me run over here. So how was that like for you? Like, but those migraines, like, did you feel that too on your day to day? Or how was it? I mean it was, I, I didn’t know what to do about it, you know? I was at my wits end, I kind of just managed with it. I actually was not somebody who wanted to take medication because I felt like the migraines were telling me something.

I was like, almost like self punishment, but like, keep them around until you figure them out, you know? And, and, and use that as a compelling force to help me heal. But, uh, yeah, for a long time I made very little progress, you know, I just like, it was the lifestyle underneath that needed to heal and shift.

So it was definitely impacting my performance. And, and I think that too, with the, just like the emotional stress and capacity, you know, I didn’t have the capacity that I do now that works near the capacity and that impacts like creativity, leadership, problem solving, interacting with other people.

And like, those are all like crucial workplace skills. And so not bringing those to the table, I would say, even though I had a high output, I made up for those things by working crazy long hours. I was making up, I was probably, that was still like half my capacity and, and making all those shifts and actually working less, I can operate at a far higher capacity because I’m making room for the creative problem solving, which is, you know, you can spend hours bashing your head into a problem and not getting anywhere, or you can step back, take care of yourself, and then the insight comes in and that’s like way more effective use of those few hours.

And that’s just like one small example of how. Yeah. And so, so talking about that, like, you know, what, let’s first go to the decision. So what was the marker? So you had all this, and then I want to dive deeper into that. That’s solving problems in less time. Uh, what was the moment? Cause we’re talking about all this leading up, you’re making those sacrifices.

Was there a moment where you saw the change like a cocoon moment like the caterpillar coming and then you became a butterfly or was It a gradual? There were multiple Mark. Okay, so my first startup in solar a friend of mine had raised money and I was in grad school and I just left to join His company and was finishing my degree and then actually when I finished my grad degree I also left that company Um, and that was at the compelling of a girlfriend, you know, it was just like showing me an alternative way of life.

And it was just like, I want to travel to Mexico for two months. I’m like, wow, I could never take off two months on this job. And incidentally, on that trip to Mexico is where I met Kakao. Okay. Yeah. I was, it’s like, I had to. Leave that job to create space for the life changing kind of opportunities and to be in love and all those things.

Yes. Um, I wanted to go to festivals, you know, and then I noticed my coworkers were all working so hard that they resented me for any amount of time that I would take off to take care of myself and to like be a more multifaceted person. And that didn’t feel good. And it was like, you know, I would take off a day and, and that was like a huge issue.

So and it wasn’t like super explicit, but it was subtle and I could feel it. Um, and I also noticed, I saw people that were really good in my, so, I took a second job a few months later because I kinda like, left my job, had no plan, encountered Kakao, was passionate about Kakao, but didn’t want to start a business or anything, had no thoughts of that.

Okay. And then a contact of mine in Solar, who actually was running a competing company, reached out and was like, hey, I really want you to work for us. And I was like, wow. I’m burnt out. I was traveling to China like every single month troubleshooting issues we were having. Like I was just completely done.

And I was like, the only way I’ll work is if I can work half time remotely from like a cabin in the ocean where I’m gonna live with my girlfriend and like study permaculture. Because I knew I had to get myself in nature. I knew nature was just like part of the solution that I was looking for. And then, um, what was the other condition?

halftime, not travel to China. And, um, you know, he was game, he was like, cool, I’ll enable this lifestyle for you. I’ll come out, we’ll go walk the beach and then just find me a whiteboard so that in the year we can brainstorm ideas. And then I’ll ship in all the electrical components you need. So he actually made it like the most optimal version of my job as a mechanical, electrical engineer and product designer.

Um, and still after a couple of years of that, I realized my heart wasn’t, was still missing something. My soul was needing something more, which was on one side. Um, it was engagement with community. I was designing products for people around halfway around the world and I just like needed more social connection.

To the work that I was doing, right? And then the other part of it was that I saw people who were really good in my field and I saw how passionate they were about it and I saw myself and I saw that I was really good at it, but not that good and I want to be the best at what I do. And I just realized my heart wasn’t in that work, even though it was having the impact I was desiring.

And that was. Different from what I personally needed. It was kind of more this concept of what the world needed. Yes. And how I could support that, but it wasn’t linked back to that personal sustainability mission of what did I really need? Yes. And so that’s, that’s where the cacao came in. Um, I, I noticed how I just, the, okay, here’s the turning point.

I noticed how every time I started working with the cow, I would just light up and have endless energy. There’s just so curious and excited about it. And then every time I would open my laptop to do the coding and then work on circuit boards, like, yeah. I was struggling so hard with fatigue. Like I just shut down and it was like Pushing this huge ball uphill.

Like I just couldn’t do it anymore And after months of struggling with that I I had to throw in the towel and that was that felt like a breakup because it was such a good job The team understood me. It was really hard to leave that and they bent all the rules so you could yeah Yeah, and and that’s also when I was like, well if it’s not this You Then it’s got to be something different.

And um, the last straw also was my grandma passed away. And I remember I was in Germany when I filed for the LLC paperwork for the chocolate business. Because just, you know, death is so confronting. And, and that happening made me realize life is short. And why try to fit myself in this path that clearly I’m getting these signals that it’s not my path.

Um, so that, that, that pushed me over the edge to be able to have the confidence to make that life and start my own business. It’s, uh, it’s so, I mean, I’m sorry for that boss, but then also it’s such a gift that your grandmother gave you in a way, you know, um, as I started exploring my growth and personal growth, you realize that death is that indicator like so many times in our life.

I find that people that are afraid to talk about death are the people that are most not living, right? And when we can have these discussions, then it makes a huge difference for what we’re doing in our life and making those choices because this is, this is our life, right? So it is, it is so, so powerful.

And you brought up something really big because you brought up the lack of being able to notice our feelings. Because we’re so busy, but then you’re also indicating that there was enough awareness. And I want to bring that up really loud right now, because one of the core values in my company is fun, or even to say joy, like fall, have joy in all we do.

And I think it’s overlooked because we have this freedom of choice. And we, we choose to ignore our feelings or even train to, right? Like just to numb it all out. But even though it’s a guiding light, like spiritually, if you want to call it that or whatever, it’s just something inside of us. And that’s how they say, follow your heart, right?

It’s like screaming out of you. And you’re just a great example of this because here you’re doing something you’re really good at that you’re sought after. Companies are willing to do all these changes to honor what you want so they can have your expertise. Yet it was bringing you fatigue and your body was saying no and good for you for listening because some people have done their whole career that way and they’ll be 60 70 years old and be like what did I do right and then you listened and now you have or cacao which is Giving life to all kinds of industries, which we’ll get to in a minute.

But like, I’m so happy that you brought up feelings because, because that is such a big part of what I teach in more business, more life, because we are, I think in modern society, many, and it’s not just in our United States of America. I mean, I got to think all over the world, we were. Ignoring our feelings.

So the question for you Jonas is like, when you started noticing, cause you even said a few minutes ago that you were ignoring your feelings. When did you notice these feelings coming louder and louder? And then how, when did you know that’s something you didn’t take action? You know? Yeah, it actually started the senior year of college, um, because my mom passed away suddenly.

And that was something I was completely unprepared for at that point in my life. I’d never had anybody close to me. And, and I lived surrounded in a society that idealizes youth and has very little discussion about death. So I was, I was completely blindsided. And, uh, quite frankly, I thought what the way to get through it was to take more classes.

That that was gonna make me happy. And it very quickly became apparent that that wasn’t the strategy. Like, I physically collapsed. I had to go start seeing a therapist. And I actually reduced my course load to the minimum that they would let me. Um, fighting it the whole way. Like, every, every time I let go of a class and I was like, Oh gosh, this is, this is the worst thing ever.

Like, that’s how much I believed that that was my path towards happiness. Um, but what happened in therapy was actually profound. Um, the counselor. One for the first time inquired about my dreams. No adult had ever inquired about my dreams. And I do have vivid dreams. And that became an unlock to accessing emotion and, and like other guidance about my, my state in the world.

And then she also began teaching me an emotional vocabulary. Believe it or not, as, uh, as a man growing up, I had very little emotional vocabulary. I felt things, but often, Didn’t know how to put the word to the feeling what I felt. And so that was this like very slow rewiring process, you know? And at first it was like, I’d feel something.

And then like an hour later, I’d be like, Oh, maybe it’s that. And that was even progress compared to having to look at the whiteboard of all the possible emotional states and be like, Oh, is it that one or that one? You know, it’s like, it was a complete training from scratch. And I can’t believe that I grew up that way.

But I did, you know, that’s just kind of the, the culture and then what was valued. And, and for me it was performance in school above all else, um, and performance and work. And so that had started in college. And so that process was just kind of naturally in progress during the early stages of my career.

Um, I also started dancing. I realized that I love dancing. That was something completely not career related. And, and again, that was something that was enormously difficult to me. I had very little connection to my body, admired people dancing and wanted to dance like that, but didn’t know how to connect it.

But I just almost religiously showed up to this practice to just dance and dance and dance. And I had a few dance teachers who really made the connection between dance and emotional states. They said that every movement pattern that we have in our body, like if we notice ourselves dancing and doing the same thing, they would challenge us to break that movement pattern because most likely that movement pattern was hiding some sort of emotional state or trauma on the body.

And that if we broke it, Physically then it would set more in process behind the scenes And so I began that that just made sense to me and it felt like a way that I could Access my emotions in a way that wasn’t like sitting down in therapy And so that process was simultaneously at work and then when I did relocate out of the city into nature and was just surrounded by Ocean and earth and sky sitting around a fire every week with other people who were watching the birds and looking at the animals and telling stories like something really began connecting in terms of like, Oh, this is a healthy culture.

Like this is what it looks like to be sustainable, to be in relationship with the earth. You know, it’s very, there’s not much technology involved there. It’s there’s, there’s this culture though, that felt vibrant and alive. And I began to process and, and really began understanding the symptoms of my mom’s death.

Um, or the, the root causes and then kind of everything that had led up to this terrible trauma in my family. Um, that’s, that’s where I really began doing that work and, and that’s right when Kakao came in too. Like I, I was, I think I was in Oaxaca in May, 2012 and then started this program, nine month permaculture program in September, 2012.

And so the, the cacao was like fresh in, I didn’t even really know the potency of the plant medicine that I was working with. And this, this process was really beginning to deepen because now I was working halftime, I had more space and I was in the nature and the community that supported that. It’s so beautiful, uh, and I don’t think, I don’t believe in coincidences.

As I’ve gotten older, you know, just everything happens. On purpose. And then here you are coming to the stage in your life, dealing with the emotion with your, and thank you so much for sharing your heart today with everyone, just being so vulnerable to share about the experience of your, your mother and your experience with your grandmother while you’re having these work experiences and you collapse all that in time and then have cacao introduced and all these feelings come and the dance come.

And so then. It led you to make the decision. And so you were, so because you signed the papers in Germany, well, you know, while it was happening with your family, with your grandmother, you were already on the verge and you’re like not knowing. And then you decided, or were you already like, maybe just to that point, I know it’s like getting in the weeds for a second, but you.

Literally decided in that moment and you just called someone in the US and said, Hey, can we make this company or how’d that go? Yeah, I mean you can file an LLC online right easily, but I actually even more so than the papers I remember ordering my first pieces of chocolate equipment from like the upstairs in my grandparents house It was like a kind of furnished attic.

Yeah, and so I was up there And then it was like, okay, I’m logging online. I’m getting the payment wired to set this in motion. I didn’t even have a space to put it in yet. It was just like, I know I need tools because I know, I know in Oaxaca, Mexico, I learned the process of making cacao by hand and I learned, and then I had gotten some very small home scale tools to do that process.

But I knew if I wanted to start any sort of business, I’d have to make it at a scale that wasn’t just five pounds of cacao at a time. Yes. Um, and so that’s when I began looking into, you know, small commercial scale chocolate making tools. Um, and, and that was part of my thesis, you know, was that The cacao I had experienced in Oaxaca, Mexico by hand traditional methods where there was this There was this energy in the cacao that I had just never experienced in any commercially produced chocolate And so I felt like you know knowing engineering and knowing heat transfer and fluid dynamic and process control that There must be something in the industrial process that was losing this essence that was in the cacao by made by hand And I felt like it was Quite possible to mimic that traditional process using machines.

Like there’s nothing inherently bad about machines when they come with machines and tools all the time, but it’s, it’s the right usage of that and staying in tune to that essence and committed to not losing it. Yes. So that’s beautiful. And we’ve talked many times. I’ve never gotten this deep with you on that.

That’s beautiful. So then you, you know, brought the machines in and you looked at how you could And then did you quickly notice that it was, it was working? Cause I mean, I can feel the difference when I drink your chocolate. I mean, I do feel that essence. Like when you, it’s like having grandma’s cooking and all the love.

And so I think, you know, maybe it is the machines, but also it’s all your love. Like you bring so much love to this company. Like, I mean, just knowing you and I want to bring that on camera right now because not everyone gets to sit with you like I do get to today. But I think you are bringing that love because when I think about making it by hand, right?

It’s pouring that love, right? You’re literally holding. Yeah that that love but I think you’re holding that love But then I guess geeking out on that for a second Like how did you bring that into the machines as you’re saying like you literally mechanically figured out how to do it as well Yeah, so when we talk about hand making Our hands are physically connected to our heart.

So it’s this outpouring of our heart energy into what we’re creating. And I think that’s where actually all my schooling in mechanical engineering and electrical and software engineering it taught me to make machines an extension of myself. Like, there were no small scale chocolate making equipment. Or it existed, but it didn’t do what I wanted it to do.

So pretty much everything, my original chocolate factory, I either assembled from scratch or I hacked it. And, and so I had a very intimate relationship with every tool and they would break down and I’d have to fix it. But I would say that process of my hands being involved in the process was, it never left because those machines, I was so familiar with them.

Um, and, and you’re right, it’s more than just the machines that goes into it. It’s, it’s the intention and the spirit behind it. It’s the cacao that I was sourcing, you know, the whole way through. I never lost a connection to cacao as medicine. Like it was, that was always my intention with making it. I knew that I didn’t want to make chocolate candy.

In fact, one of the things I discovered before I committed to starting the business was that sugar was part of my headache problem. Um, and I went cold turkey on sugar and it significantly reduced the intensity of my headaches. And then I pretty quickly after a couple of weeks had the problem of like, what do I do about chocolate?

Because I knew I wanted chocolate in my life. And so, um, I, the class and where I had started was making 70 percent dark chocolate with cane sugar. That was kind of what was considered dark chocolate back then. Okay. Um, yeah. 85 percent was considered unfathomably dark, but I was watching how much sugar goes into a 70 percent chocolate bar And I was like, that’s still a lot of sugar and we’re calling that dark chocolate And so I halved the amount of sugar 15 percent sugar 85 percent cacao versus 30 percent sugar 70 percent cacao It’s actually the 70 and 85 look very very close to each other On the, on the numerical scale, but what we’re not seeing is 15 versus 30, and there you can see it’s, it’s literally half the sugar, and that has a huge impact on how cacao is absorbed.

We put something, we, we put chocolate in our mouths, and it becomes assimilated into our bodies through the gut. And the gut is this complex microbiome of many different bacteria. And the sugar eating bacteria are quite voracious, and they out compete many of the beneficial bacteria, including the ones that process all the good stuff in cacao.

So at 70 percent cacao, it’s too sweet, the sugar eating bacteria win. So you actually don’t get many of the health benefits. Most of the studies on the health benefits of cacao, they’re all with 85 percent of darker chocolate. So, 85%, that’s when, uh, That’s when I really realized that I stumbled onto something because I also used Coconut sugar which is a low glycemic index sweetener much more popular now So that was kind of my starting thesis Just to like use sweetener minimally to take the bitter edge off the cacao.

Um, that evolved further to making a hundred percent cacaos because pretty quickly I realized that the sugar in many ways was compensating for various imperfections in the chocolate making process. And that if I really went into the nuance of working with the tools and the process that I could make quite good a hundred percent, um, much better than what was commonly available on the market.

And also my palate. was adapting to more and more bitter chocolate. You know, we live in a culture that does, it’s not used to bitter. Um, and, uh, and especially in chocolate, we’re conditioned to think that candy is sweet, but I would watch customers like have their first bite and being like, Oh, that’s too bitter.

And then have another bite like, Huh, interesting. And I have a third by like, Oh, that’s actually pretty good. Like I, I saw that enough times that I saw that people’s palates were adaptable. And um, the other thing with making 100 percent cacao is you can always add sweetener to it if you want. I do that sometimes too, but it’s removing that health decision from a company and, and putting in each person’s individual hands because these days everybody has a different sweetener that’s their preferred, you know, and that’s just a choice that people should get to make individually.

So that’s, that’s all led me down towards 100 percent cacao. That’s so beautiful. And it, uh, and I learned this from you, you kick that off the whole way that the stomach digests it and it’s, it. You know, the sugar is going to get digested in, like you said, it’s going to win over and then you lose all of the medicinal purposes of it.

And I think a key thing that you also taught me and worth bringing up here is that I think, well, and I want to do two parts. One, One of my favorite nutritionists from Australia, he’s a good friend of mine, he always brought up that he won’t work with clients that won’t eat bitters because how much it actually cleanses and he is like on the same page with you, he said, we need to bring bitters back.

He says back because many, many years ago it was a common thing and it’s only been in this last probably like maybe 200 years if you, I don’t, you know, that it’s become more common to just be sugar, sugar, sugar, everything else to be sweet. And we lose so much so and I met him just before you maybe like a couple years before I met you and so I already had that in my head and then when I met you it just like pushed her over the edge and I think what makes it different for me and then maybe you can explain more but with your chocolate the other thing that a lot of people do when they get cacao is they immediately get a powder you know and then yeah and then what happened for me this is my experience when I had your cacao It was like so creamy and you know, like learning how much fat is retained in your process by not overheating the chocolate and reducing all of that.

I think that also makes it palatable because you think, cause I have had a hundred percent. on a bar made by other companies. And it’s like, Whoa, you know, it’s like, cause they probably put it to a powder and then made the bar or something. I don’t know. I don’t know. But I just know that it was not okay.

And then I immediately, the day I met you and I tasted your cacao is like, Whoa, this is different. Yeah, this is, this is, can you say, can you explain that part that not only are you not adding sweetener, but you’re giving like the whole food. Yeah, so there’s two parts to it. Um, first, um, the, the whole food part.

So, um, it’s actually really cool. The cacao bean coming off the tree, um, it gets fermented and then dried and that’s where the precursors of the flavor of chocolate come from. Those then get brought out through the process of roasting. You have to shell the bean and then when you grind up the bean, It actually has about 50%, even though it’s completely solid, it has about 50 percent natural cacao butter in it.

Um, but you can’t melt a beaten, it needs to be mechanically scraped apart. It breaks the cell walls and that frees up the fat inside it. And so when you grind a cacao bean, it doesn’t go to power. It actually becomes liquid chocolate. The more you grind it, it takes anywhere between eight and 24 hours to reduce the particle size and grind the chocolate all the way down until it’s completely smooth, but it’s, you’re not rushing it.

You’re not rushing. Why rush it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also it, the, the reduction of particle size becomes more inefficient over time as you’re getting to smaller and smaller. So the first bit will grind down pretty fast, but then it just takes time to make it so smooth that it just melts in your mouth. And that was an absolute criteria for me for making good chocolate was I wanted that mouthfeel of the chocolate.

Um, but yeah, the, the cacao never goes to powder. And, and the logical thing that most people think is, Oh, you grind up a bean, you get powder. And that’s simply not true with cacao. How you get cacao powder is you actually make that liquid chocolate, and then in these giant industrial presses, uh, you squeeze the powder, the the fat out, and then you get left with what’s a press cake, and that gets hammered and becomes a powder.

But it’s actually a more industrial process to make cacao powder, and it’s separating out the fat, which is. And the way cacao powder is marketed is that it has, it’s a concentration of almost all the health benefits except that it’s missing the fat and it’s marketed as, Oh, it’s better for you because there’s no fat, but the fat is the natural carrier mechanism for all those health benefits and the cacao.

So you can take cacao powder, but it’s, it’s got no way to absorb into the body. So you need that fat. Um, and that’s how nature designed it. So why even squeeze out the fat in the first place? The reason is that. you take a single commodity input and you split it into multiple revenue streams, they make more money, make more profit.

Um, I actually think cacao powder is a waste product from cacao butter, which is a fairly high grade fad. It’s used in cosmetics and other products and they had to find a way to sell the cacao, the leftover, you know? Um, and I think that’s where the cacao powder market actually comes from. Handy to use for certain applications, but again, the highest quality cacao powder I’ve ever had has most of the fat retained in it.

Okay. So yeah, you want fats. And, and that’s, that’s a narrative that’s also pervasive in American food marketing and you know, all the low fat, no fat. I think that came out of like the eighties, right? And they like started getting margarine so that they could bring in like Corn products into the, into the butters and all that kind of stuff without getting in that deep hole that we both know the reality though.

And even the idea to reduce your fat so far. But what I’ve learned and you probably have more stats than me, but the brain is like close to 70 percent fat. And when we eliminate that fat. Uh, you, you, now you start, you know, affecting the brain, you know, and I know for one of my teachers taught me that if you take the top two chess players in the world and then you take like a super bowl NFL football athlete that plays the most minutes on the field and you look at their chlorine, the chloric depletion.

The chess players actually deplete more, uh, calories than that NFL player sitting there playing chess. And why is that? The reason is the brain. That’s what it came back to the study. The brain sucks more energy than any part of our body, right? More blood, water, and fat. And so getting the good fat in our, in our body.

Did you know that going into like keeping the fat or was it just about the creamy part? And now this is an additional like bonus that, yeah, we’re giving good fat to our brain and everything, right? The whole lot. Yeah, no, we need fast to function. And I, I honestly, I had no idea. I was just the process I had learned in Mexico and there was no reason to ever go to powder and, and then I pieced it together afterwards that that’s what was happening.

Yeah. Um, the other. Big part of what we do is low temperature processing. Um, and that actually requires high quality input. So cacao is a natural product. You know, the, every cacao harvest, the beans change. So we actually add a low roast profile, low temperature roast profile. We actually adjust our roast profile with every single batch and our end product is slightly different with every harvest.

And, uh, you know, Western culture has this thing for uniformity. And, oh, you like how something tastes, that you want to taste, you know, companies that are selling a product, they want it to taste the same way every time, so they don’t lose customers, and people have come to expect that consistency and flavor, but it, it loses that connection to nature, and, and in the case of cacao, the way that consistency is created is by high temperatures.

And those high temperatures drive off many of the beneficial and the healthy properties of cacao. So, um, what I experienced and saw in Oaxaca, Mexico was the, the roasting was actually the most delicate part of the whole process. Um, when I first got started, not so much these days, because I think we’ve actually made a pretty big impact in our education on this, but everybody was asking me, is it raw chocolate?

I was like, no, why, why raw? Like there’s no indigenous culture that makes rakshasa, but they all roast at low temperature. Right. I think raw in many ways was a reaction to the over processing of our foods in the high temperatures. But with cacao, specifically some, some foods actually do well with a little bit of temperature and we can talk about this alchemically and from the ceremonial aspect too, like a healthy relationship with fire is important.

And so that process of. keeping all the beneficial compounds in the cacao intact by absolutely minimizing the temperature that they’re exposed to everywhere in our process, um, while judiciously using it when necessary. Um, that created and kept that energy of the cacao alive in a way that was commercial chocolate pleasant because they were after consistency and they’re also masking poor quality on the inputs.

And that’s the other thing is, um, Most of the chocolate in the world is bought on the commodity marketplace where farmers receive extremely low prices for cacao. So there’s no incentive for quality. It’s just volume, volume, volume. And we’ve seen it, we’ve heard stories of people stuffing in rocks and sticks into their sacks of cacao just to get an extra 10% Because often the scales are even rigged 10 percent against the farmers, you know, it’s just it’s just terrible.

And that’s a continuation of 500 years of colonialism of extraction from tropical communities. And so that’s what most of our chocolate consumption rests on. And so To look for premium quality cacao, we’re, we’re actually paying extra attention to the ferment. We were doing a five to seven day ferment instead of two days.

Um, we’re paying farmers more to only harvest the pods when they’re exactly right so that we have even sugar levels going into the Fermentation and then you can even fermentation if you don’t have an even fermentation you get funky off flavors left and right Um, we’ve developed specific fermentation protocols just for 100 percent cacao, you know, we’ve noticed that Oh, if you fermented a day too long, it doesn’t taste as good as if you fermented it, you know day shorter So like Actually putting a lot of thought and care into that part of the supply chain and not buying off the commodity market and then paying way better so that the farmers can make a good livelihood, um, and are actually excited by the work that they do and that they see a future in there and it’s not a continuation of this extractivism and colonialism that their communities have suffered so much under.

So all of that completely changes the energy of the cacao and The beans don’t have all these often defective flavors So then we can actually roast it at a low temperature without needing to mask anything and that what comes out is clean Yes, you know, it’s just clean the whole way through it’s clean in our relationships.

It’s clean and how the ecosystem is treated You know when people aren’t cutting corners They have they have Time and desire to be permaculture because they live in those same communities. So the water from those farms runs through their town, you know, so of course they’re not going to put chemicals in it and they’re going to, um, plant the trees to control erosion and, and all the things that they can do.

Cacao is actually an incredible crop for tropical ecosystem preservation and protection because it’s one of the few cash crops. that, um, farmers can make money off of, um, without needing to degrade the ecosystem in any way whatsoever. It has an understory tree, so it does well in a tropical rainforest.

Um, you know, typically cash, cash flows for tropical ecosystem communities is mining cattle or deforestation. Um, everything else is more of subsistence agriculture, you know, or, or big plantations, which are also then clear cuts and monocultures. So having actual crop that can come out of the rain forest that gives people additional income in addition to the food that they’re describing for their families, that’s huge.

Thank you very much. And we need more solutions like that because tropical rainforests are under such incredible threat right now. And so that, that speaks a little bit to how we even do what we do at the factory in the first place because of the whole shift in the supply chain beforehand. You brought up so much in that again, it all comes back to that love and intention, right?

Because From how you’re sourcing it, how you’re, you’re caring for the cacao in this way and bringing it all the way to market the whole way. It’s all love everything I’m hearing you say, and you can’t forgive me if I’m wrong, but I think it’s like some hundred farms plus that now you are a part of that you’re helping that ecosystem.

Is that right? It’s actually thousands now, but it’s, and that’s, it’s so cool because. Somewhere more. The maximum size of a farm that we’ll source from is like five acres. Okay. So, so these are really small farms. It’s just hundreds and now thousands of ’em. So it’s distributing the impact of us sourcing the cacao into the communities.

It’s not going to a single plantation holder that then pays workers. Um, and actually the, the other cool thing is the farmers, they don’t, they don’t ferment their own cacao in the traditional model. They the commodity model, they ferment their own cacao. Usually they don’t have enough cacao to even ferment it well in the first place.

And so it gets low prices because it’s not of a high enough quality to reach the export market. The model that Ora Cacao has grown up with side by side is these community fermentation centers where all the farmers will actually Pitch their cacao into a central fermentation center that then has local community members hired That ferment it to the quality that can then get it to export So the farmers actually do less work and they get paid more for it It’s just the win win win and that model has been so successful that since we started it’s just replicated from one country to the next Okay.

So way back when you told me like a hundred and now, oh my gosh, now it was over a thousand and then it shows up in the bag right there. Yeah. That’s, that’s so, uh, beautiful. So I can just, even just hearing all the thoughts and the thing that comes back to the intention and it shows up in your mouth when you, When you put that in, like you say, it just melts in your mouth.

And usually when I make cacao with a blender to get it like that nice frothy, like hot, hot cacao and a cup, which I have almost every day, I still put one on my tongue while I’m doing it and let the cacao come into my body and almost kind of start my prayer for the day and, and having that in there. And so I do feel it.

So everything you were saying, I, I feel when I, when I have your cacao is I haven’t had anything near it. Like I’m serious. And I, I’ve been around chocolate, you know, my whole life. I mean, it was a whole different thing when I was younger. Cause it was, like you said, a lot of sugar, all this thing. But as I started to get cleaner diet, you know, you try those other dark chocolates and it, and even I would say when I was younger, I would even say I didn’t like dark chocolate, but it’s a lot of because it’s so poorly put together.

And so thank you again. This is why I’m so honored to sit with you because, Look at what you’ve done. I mean, and maybe I don’t know how much you stand back But you just said so much from start to finish of what you’ve done and that’s why it shows up in the product Let’s it goes back to that ethos of putting our hearts into our work, right?

And and it that You know you you travel to the countries you see where the cacao comes from I mean Previously, my work in solar, I mean, I just saw an incredible inequity when you travel to what we call developing world countries, you know, that are in many ways, that’s the privilege that we live upon requires that sort of poverty and desperation, and that’s been hundreds of years in the making.

And none of us really want that, but it’s, it’s these like massive global systems that we seem to be stuck in. And so going to source cacao and wanting to do it in a good way, like it just requires a complete rethinking and re imagination of that to shift out of this extractivism that’s just become the norm and, and that goes into most chocolate products.

And, you know, unfortunately most chocolate companies, they spend a huge amount of time on branding and there’s a lot of greenwashing and social greenwashing. Um, but the truth is that the farmer just gets so little and we just like need to look at that and be like, actually, that’s really unfair. And, and we need to pay far more for this in order for people to have hope and to, to be excited to do, you know, like, I think one of the best metrics is, are young people excited to grow cacao?

Like, do they see a future in that? And, and that’s, that’s really something that makes me pause and makes you look. And, and when you like really sit down to meet face to face with communities, you know, it’s like they have so much to share with us. We have so much to share with them. There’s people on both sides of it.

And, and it’s. Many times I say cacao is about relationship. It’s cultivating and tending to those relationships. And doing the best we can to do better. You know, I look at everything that we’ve done and I still feel like we have so much work to do. You know, even though we pay our farmers more than Other farmers get paid like that’s just the beginning to healing hundreds of years of inequity, you know I’m under no illusion that we’ve solved that problem whatsoever.

We’re looking at other parallel channels of reciprocity of like how else can we help because we’ve actually Numerous times have actually raised the cacao price Um, too high, we, we caused other problems that we didn’t anticipate by trying to pay people more. Um, you know, agriculture has boom and bust cycles.

So if you pay people too much for cacao, they start chopping down orange trees and other crops in order to like, get in on the cacao craze. I’m like, that’s not sustainable either. So there’s only so much that you can do with cacao price. One of the other things that we. Launched a year ago was actually an insurance program for our farmers because most rural farmers They don’t even know what insurance is nor do they have access to it Nobody will insure a farmer making you know, a few bucks a day kind of thing Yet, we realized that our farmers are very susceptible to climate change and Proved itself just a few months ago in Belize which is the first place that we started farming, there were actually agricultural fires that got out of control.

Uh, people were doing slash and burn, um, and, and the, it was dry and it was windy. And I think about it. Yeah. Latest we had a 42 cacao farms, 20, 000 trees got destroyed and those farmers, you know, it’s like in the traditional model, they just kind of be screwed. Um, there wasn’t even, there wasn’t even fire services.

Like they were fighting the fires with buckets and anything that they could put together, you know, and that’s like, again, we take fire services for granted. It’s like, it just kind of begin, it helps you begin to understand the privilege that we have. And it’s like, we, though, we have a connection with those farmers, you know, the farmers, they plant trees that lasts for decades.

You know, it’s, it’s the short term model of short term buyer of like, Oh, I want this at the best price. I’m going to buy it one year and then not the next. It just doesn’t work for farmers. And so we’re long, we’re long term committed relationships with the farmers. Something like a fire happens. It’s like, how do you keep supporting them?

Well, that’s where insurance normally comes in income replacement. So we’ve been collaborating to raise funds and send farms down there to the affected farmers so that they can recover, you know, right now their immediate need is food because they didn’t just lose their cacao trees, they lost all their farms and crops and they don’t, normally pay money for food because they grow it all and they barter within their community, but if they’ve lost those farms, then how are they going to get food?

Right? So it’s, it’s, there’s many, many layers of reciprocity that we can create when we actually spend time on the ground on the farms and understand what the needs are. And that’s actually something that I’m really grateful to say is connected back to my career in solar, because both of the companies that we worked for, we did.

need, need finding where we travel to those countries and, and ask like, actually, what’s a good solar product for this community? You know, what do they actually need rather than imposing what we think is needed? You know, that’s, there’s many products that have been designed that have flopped because they weren’t rooted in understanding the people that would use them.

Yes. And I’m with you on that. With more business, more life, we look at Who is our, who are our well clients ask them what they want to need and then give them that, you know, and then you build your business around that. And then you’re actually servicing and creating and then sustainability going back to it because you’re not just create, because if you do create something that you want to force upon somebody, it typically is short lived.

You might have some. success. There are many companies that have an initial success, but then it like wanes off. And then the longterm, the companies that are built to last, they, they do this, like we were talking about and create this symbiosis and this long tail, as it said, but you know, it’s just, it really, it’s sustainability.

And with all this, let’s, you know, shift a little bit into some of the business side of it. You think there might be business people watching this, leaders that go, Oh, well, how’s that going to work? And then, you know, they might’ve thought when you started these ideas and you brought all this extra effort, because really it’s extra effort, right?

Machine testing, testing each product. And then even like what you’re saying, you source the cacao. It’s not going to be the exact same because it’s nature. It’s going to come slightly different. And then you’re tasting, okay, what are our temperatures need to be and you’re doing so again, extra, extra, extra, extra.

Then, you know, a lot of people would say, Oh, you’re not going to make it, but you’ve done the opposite. You’ve succeeded beyond measure. Like, you know, you continually exponentially grow and have so much success. So can you talk about that? Or were you like so confident or were you like, Hey, we might bust trying to do it this way.

You, when you put this focus, I do find like in a spiritual way that when you put people on the planet first prophets follow. And I think that’s, you know, just an overarching thing, but I mean, just real fundamental things. You’ve also had to watch your business So, how did you do all this extra love and work and give and pay people more and all that stuff?

Did it magically happen or did you see the things you needed to do to make this Orca cow succeed? I mean in my eyes it was never a choice like it was the only way to do it It was the only thing that I could fully stand behind and be proud in Um, it meant, uh, you know, paring down and living pretty minimally at first, you know, and doing a lot of the work myself until I could afford my first, you know, high level higher to get help.

Um, it was very, very bootstrapped. Um, also that’s part of the freedom that I’ve created through it is to not be investor driven. You know, we’re not driven by somebody else’s need for returns. Don’t get me wrong, there’s many applications where having investors help a business grow is super important, and we might still take that at some point.

But, not having that pressure. You know, to grow organically, to grow slowly, to actually iterate on the product early on, listen to what people were looking for, see what resonates, not spend wild sums of money in places where they ultimately weren’t productive, you know, to actually like, Learn how to handle money as we got bigger and, and, and, and, you know, stay within our means.

Um, again, an engineering principle we had was fail early and fail often just like really embracing that iterative process. But yeah, it is, it’s never a question, you know, it’s just like, okay, if it’s, it needs to cost more and needs to cost more, we’re going to find people who value it. And that’s been without a question proven true.

And that’s where people, You know, I, I think other people in the chocolate industry were like, Oh, ceremonial cacao, that’s a hippie thing. I was like, well, we’re going to make it, you know, taste extremely good. We’re going to do it with impeccable quality. That’s repeatable. We’re going to have branded presented well, and we’re even going to do all the lab testing that people are asking us for.

We would spend tens of thousands of dollars on lab tests to prove that there’s no heavy metals in our product, to like understand how each step of the process impacts our product. Like. It’s because our profit and our impact isn’t measured purely in dollars. It’s measured in the livelihoods of those farmers.

It’s measured in the health outcomes that, you know, I read the reviews that we get every single week. Um, to inspire me to motivate me because they’re constantly coming in and people whose lives have been changed with the cacao and like that, that’s the ultimate success. Like the money is only a small part of it in so much as we need to be able to keep doing what we’re doing and to invest in having a greater impact.

But, um, It’s a tool. It’s a, that is for me, money’s a tool and it creates the sustainability that you’re creating. And so, and then the other question is, is the personal sustainability, like, am I healthier and happier and that, and that has meant growing the team, investing in the team over time, making smart decisions to have like an amazing team so that I can also do everything else I need to do in my life and not be ruled by the business all the time.

It’s so good, again, coming back to all the intention, all the way to the end, and having it straight from the beginning, you just knew there was no other way that you were going to do this business without caring for everyone, and I just want you to know from the bottom of my heart, it shows, because that’s where you get that grandma’s cooking feeling, you know, like how you can make the same recipe and it doesn’t taste the same, you know, like people talk about all the time.

But this is all it’s all love. What’s the missing piece in the recipe? I often say when people talk about that it’s love and you’ve brought love To the to the forefront in that in that way and you know, actually that’s one of our core values Is love I put it out there love includes everything and everyone that’s you know How we define that but putting it as a core value for our company.

It seems Spoken or unspoken that’s what you’ve done. So how do you You you know, how, how’s that for you? Like when you just brought that, that love, because the reason I bring it is because some people have actually said to me, you know, cause there might be old thinking the older, like you can’t have love and business.

What are you talking about? Like, it’s like, feels like things there. Right. And I’m like, nope, it’s going to go here. And I’ve stuck to that. I’ve never like had anyone make me feel like I’m going to back down, but you too have had that experience. So I just want you to. Share that real quick. Like how it was undeniable that you’re going to do all of this with love.

Yeah. You actually choose your customers running a business. You know, that, that’s a big thing that I’ve discovered is that by being authentically who we are and, and just staying true to that, we will find it, attract the people that resonate with that. And most businesses, you know, they don’t need a million customers to do well.

Yeah, actually you just need to be really. Thriving in your niche and and you can have an outsized impact in your niche I’ve talked to other business owners are like we would love to make 100 percent cacao except none of our customers will buy it because they Started making a sweetened product, you know, and that’s that’s where their bottom line is from and they can’t just pivot out of that.

Yeah So yeah Staying authentic I think I think is huge And we call that wow clients. It’s the wow. And, and choosing not to be with the owl. And it doesn’t mean the owl are bad people. They’re just not your people. They’re not the community for your product and they’re going to go find their place somewhere else.

So it’s not saying wrong or right when I say that wow and how, but it becomes an owl for us because it depletes energy and you’re trying to, you know, fit, you know, the square peg in the round hole because you’re trying to make it instead. You’re choosing to say, this is what we’re doing. Who are the people and vice versa?

Who are the people that want this? And what do these people want? And then like you said, you’re listening, you’re reading all the reviews and then you’re curating this in an amazing way. Yeah. I mean, we’ve been challenged on price constantly, you know, that, that for a long time, like we had to educate. And that’s a big part of too, is like, we really had to share with people how this is different and put in the time.

That’s I feel like almost the chocolate making is like become a fraction of my job. And the biggest part is education because of how, you know, we just talked about how complex the cacao supply chain is, how complex all the variables are that go into manufacturing and then how muddled that gets with all of this competing marketing.

So we’ve built a brand about being really truthful with people and helping them understand a food that they love. Um, and in that authenticity, you know, that’s that’s where we’ve created trust with the customer and trust Trusting relationships with people who come back and then I as a founder, I still log onto our customer service multiple times a week to see what kind of people questions people are asking us so that we can fix things that are broken and and also answer questions that people have been constantly better ways and update the content on our website.

You know, it’s it’s it’s like it’s never done. We can always do better and and and serve people better. And so that’s where Tending to those relationships is, it’s huge and, and, and really listening. That’s so beautiful. I want to do one more cacao question, and then I want to move into cacao and the relationship with your business, other businesses, and then even mine, you know, uh, even after I’ve learned so much from you, then I’ve seen other scientists more and more coming out of all the benefits of cacao.

And one of them that I’ve been seeing coming more prevalent is that they’re showing. They took, uh, cardiac patients 60 and over, and I don’t even know if you saw this stuff, did you see it? They gave them two cups, so about 16 ounces of cacao a day. And, uh, they, they tested double the stem cell generation.

Yep. That’s been huge lately. Um, the science is really just catching up to all the health benefits of cacao. Um, in many ways, pharmaceutically, it should be classified as a drug, because there’s literally hundreds of compounds that impact our body and our nervous systems. Um, one of my favorites also that is, you know, It’s still starting to get out there, I would say, is the neuroplastic effect of cacao.

Because cacao has many neurotransmitters and reuptake inhibitors that alter our brain chemistry. And if you have a daily practice like you yourself do, you know, every day it’s shifting the thought patterns and feeling patterns that you experience. And our brain, our, our brains are actually quite plastic.

So if with the aid of cacao, we’re having different experiences on a day-to-day basis, like, you know, I would say being more grateful, being less grumpy, having more regulated energy levels, just a overall and in a better mood, a more stable mood. You know, these are all, uh, mental state shifts that have happened through a regular account practice.

And I, I still remember the first time I woke up. And had a mood that I had only previously ever experienced with a cup of cacao. They’re a good mood. And I was like, Oh my God, this is cool. Like there’s something going on that my body’s actually learning from the cacao. So I, I say this, these kinds of benefits are like six months, a year out of recurring usage, but they really, the cacao becomes part of us.

And, and, and like you said, it’s, it’s, uh, You can’t imagine life without it, right? It’s, it’s, it’s just becomes a day to day because of how much it helps. And that’s only one of many of the benefits, you know? So it’s in that way, it really is a medicine and it works with us over time to not just like, okay, it’s tastes good.

And it’s picked, you know, that’s, and that’s often we’ve noticed that as people first come to cacao because. You know, they want a coffee replacement or, or they, they want more regulated energy or they want to help with creativity and then they stay because of the long life. Yeah. It’s, uh, it’s so many layers.

I mean, we can talk for hours about all of these benefits. And I found for me, the only time that I’ve really stopped is just with what, with what’s happened in my life. You know, recently, as you know, with Guillain Barré syndrome coming into my life where It, you know, for those that don’t know that are listening, and I know you know a little bit about this image, but the myelin sheath on your, your, your nerves is eaten away in the similar fashion of ALS, uh, and in that they haven’t found any way of regrowing.

So it becomes more permanent at this point. But with Guillaume Bré, you have the chance and it is a chance because I’ve met. I met a man that had in 2003 and he still can’t walk. So he hasn’t been able to get it back in his legs, but he did get his upper arms, you know, so even for me to be able to walk around and all those things.

It is, I’m super blessed and, but also the two things I noticed different when I talked to all these other Guillain Barre quote unquote survivors or whatever you want to call it overcoming this, they’re all asking me, how did I do it? You know, because at my age, like the only people that I saw do it faster healing than me were like youth, like 13 year olds, a four year old that I heard about.

It was, there was that youth definitely had a quick spring back for my, you know, from my age group, these few are like eight years, six years, five years longer. I even met a woman recently that actually still has excruciating pain in her hands. She can’t touch a keyboard without gloves, all these kinds of things.

And so the two things that I did different because I’m reflecting, I’m like, well, what did I do different? Well, one, I already had had a different relationship with pharmaceuticals. So when they wanted me to be on all these drugs, I said, no, because, and that’s from my family. Much like you, I saw grandparents, aunts, you know, I lost my youngest aunt.

She’s one of the first to pass away because they diagnosed her things and gave her pharmaceuticals. Now, I’m not going to get into the all wrong or right, but in the evidence in my family, I saw the kidney failures, the liver failures, all the other parts that were happening. So for me inside, and some people could say wrong or right, but I’m just telling you my experience.

I just, I said, no, I literally just said, no, I’m not going to have all that stuff. I’m going to stick to my food and supplements. And also I already knew about lion’s mane mushrooms, which is so good for your nervous system. But then I also knew that mixing that with cacao is a driving force for absorption.

Because I learned even before I met you, and you might be able to articulate this more, I am going to tee this back to you, but the minerals is so important to even have vitamins. So many people are like, get your vitamins, get your vitamins, and then you’re eating tons of vitamins and you’re peeing it all out because it’s not absorbing.

And that’s where the minerals come in and that’s where the cacao comes in because you have the fat, you have the minerals, and so many other compounds, as you already know, you schooled me so much. But coming back to the two things that I think changed my life, my mindset, you know, I have to say that aloud.

I mean, I definitely had previously learned to meditate and be mindful. And I, I chose, I remember the moment when I thought, am I dying? Okay. I remember, and there was a lot of tears shed and it was dark moments. And then immediately, like it was less than a minute. It might’ve been 10 seconds. It was like, no, like, no, you’re not.

And once I learned that it was my myelin and on my eyes. I don’t know if I told you this, but I couldn’t blink. So I was like face paralyzed, it was full body. So they taped my eyes shut and I said, uh, I couldn’t do anything. Right. So you’re, you’re, I’m paralyzed. My eyes are taped shut. So I just went into deep meditation and I said, I’m going to regrow.

And I did have a hospital stay because I literally couldn’t move. And my wife and my son, they couldn’t even move me around. You know, I was still pretty close to a 200 pound man. And so I needed facility help. But as soon as I could turn enough corner, I got out of the hospital and I went home. And then I started my daily cacao practice.

And I literally remember being in my wheelchair. It was the first thing when I got home and there’s even videos on my Instagram And I was, when I got to my walker and then I, I was just rewatching one and my wife was helping me down the stairs and I had this walker and I’m going really slow. And then I was sitting here on the camera on Instagram.

I was like, where’s the cacao? Cause she’s like, are you going to sit down there? I was like, yeah. And I was like looking and I didn’t see any cacao cups. And she’s like, it’s in the house. Don’t worry. If that’s not the only reason you’re walking down these stairs. I was like, yes. And I would get my cup of cacao with full of mushrooms and I sat with my wheelchair.

So this is before the walker and I just sat in the sun and I was just like with, with that and just like letting it come into my body. Wow. And it was, uh, I mean, you were part of my young brother. Yeah. Like, I mean, I’m not, it’s beyond like the everyday thing. Like, It’s a miracle. It’s a straight up miracle.

I mean that you’re with us today, you know, and, and the speed with which you’ve recovered and, and the grace too. It’s really impressive. Yeah. It’s, uh, and I’m, I’m just so grateful that the cacao could be there with you as an ally and to support your healing so immensely, because, you know, like you said, I think you, you, you nailed it on the head.

It’s, it’s the, Cacao is a great delivery mechanism for mushrooms, you know, many supplements, and, and lion’s mane in particular, it repairs neural connections. And that’s, that’s part of what you were struggling with. Yeah. And so it helped your body do that by really effectively delivering those mushrooms.

That’s often what we’re missing, missing with mushroom capsules and that kind of thing is the fat based delivery mechanism. And then, and, and I’ll add to that, that cacao is not only, it’s not only a fat based delivery, but it’s, it also acts specifically on the heart, so the theobromine is, is boosting circulation, and the bitters is cleansing the body, so, so there’s this, it’s, it’s acting on multiple levels, you know, and that’s really the true, like, genius of a medicine like cacao, is that it’s acting on multiple levels at the same time, including the minerals, you know, the, The Western lifestyle strips our bodies of essential minerals and our food system has less and less of the minerals that we need.

So having those therapeutic minerals coming in our body is essential. Um, you know, alcoholism, lack of sleep, stress, like all of those deplete. Like magnesium is a great example, and cacao is an excellent source of magnesium. And so, those minerals are essential for our heart to function, for our brain to function, and all the rest of our organs.

So all that combined, you know, I, I’m, I know that that helped support you, but then also like the mindset, you know, and, and, and, and just that you were able to stay in your heart and not succumb to fear and, and just have such clarity that you were going to recover and recover fully, you know, and, and, and not die, which was the other choice.

Yeah, and just before I went to the hospital, I was sipping cacao through a straw because I couldn’t drink anymore I couldn’t close my mouth because all that was paralyzing and I was so I just remember so I was getting all We did a whole regimen before I went to the hospital because we thought maybe we could turn before we had to do that last resort Um, but so I think it was in me and so I can’t even say like, you know Is my mindset or how did the cacao help me with my mindset?

I think it’s overlapping You know, I did have a lot of lessons like you. I had many teachers and many therapists to change who I am as a man and my connection to feelings just as you, uh, there’s a whole nother story I won’t go to today, but to come to that, then have this relationship with cacao before, uh, and, uh, and after, but I will tell you before I wasn’t, I would have a lot of days, but maybe I wasn’t a seven day a week or, but then through this process.

Bringing that in and I guess through the whole pandemic though. I did increase my cacao I noticed the difference because of what it was and you know, there’s something I want to mention before I lose the thought And I don’t know if you this would be good for you to know but during in this last year I did a big cleanse and You know, Dr.

Zach Bush. Oh, interesting. You were like him. He was a chemotherapy doctor trying to make the best chemotherapy because he had cancer stuff in his family. And so again, it was all heart. The deeper went with the microscope trying to make a medicine to get rid of cancer. He realized that we don’t need a medicine.

We need to get rid of poison. And so he’s changed this whole career to now move away from pesticides and everything. He’s outspoken. 70 percent of the food in the United States is, uh, has chemicals in it. And so then we’re eating that, which also by the way, is what they’re finding causes Guillain Barre, MS, uh, Bell’s palsy, all those neural deficiencies come from a saturation in that.

And right before I was paralyzed, I went from, because of the pandemic, being at home, getting all organic food at my house. And then coming out of that in 2021 with my first seven speaking engagements, I went into an area and I was so excited. I was getting back to work. I ate carelessly. And at that same time, uh, feeling sluggish felt really bad.

I was like, wow, I’m this much out of shape. And then four days after returning home, I fell down and the fact, and I also know I might be the canary in the, in the mine because my wife and I lost four babies. So for, and I’m giving all this history because I know my body. So from when my son was being born, we bought this house in the country.

Didn’t think anything of it. They’re spraying all around us because I bought two acres and then you have like a 100 acre farm this way this way all of these around us Literally planes buzzing. I didn’t even think when I bought the property like so for all the young people out there I was younger at the time lost four babies and they told us to stop and texas a& m and duke university were like doing a study that has been kind of buried at that time.

And they found that in the rural area, the type of pregnancies we lost and spina bifida and all these were prevalent 90 plus percent in the rural area. And so why do I say all this? So that happened to me. And that was right about the time that I lost the weight. We moved out of that house and we had two baby girls.

So as soon as I got away from the chemical, two baby girls, Is then later in life, I ate clean. And then at this point I, I lapsed because of the excitement of getting out. And I was in rural America and you can’t get as much access. And then this situation happens, but it was. All these things come back to, um, the, the cacao and the nutrition in my life and back to Dr.

Zach Bush. I think that was a long trail around. He, he brought all these pesticides awareness, but he also created a, um, hydration method. Because he also found when you’re with cancer or disease in your body, the more hydrated you are, the better it can do. I went on this process. This is why I brought up Zach Bush and that was a big circle, but also people can learn a little bit of my life and how possibly I was affected by poisons.

So I’m doing all my regimen with your cacao and I do Zach Bush’s, uh, hydration method and I was saturated. I had started having a body reaction and, um, and then I called them. I’m like, called the nutritionist that I was working with. And this is probably maybe like Eight hours or 16 hours into this method to fully hydrate, right?

Cause most of Associate Americans, they’re not hydrate. They’re like, you’re saturated, whatever you’re doing, you are completely hydrated. Like stop the method because it’s like a super hydration protocol for four days. And so I didn’t even get through the first day. Whatever you’re doing, keep doing it because you’re hydrated at capacity.

So, uh, so I, I think, you know, I do put spring water with the cacao, so I’m getting minerals from that, but all the minerals. And so that was a long story to just give you kudos again, being in my life. I mean, like you and I said, there’s like so many things we could talk about, the elements of cacao. But it also, you know, because part of hydration is minerals.

Yeah. And I mean, I think it’s a great example of just like the practical application of cacao in your lifestyle, which is complex. There’s a lot of different things going on simultaneously. I had the same thing with all of my dealings. You know, it’s, if it was simple, we would have already solved it, but these Chronic health issues and such, and complicated diseases, uh, and just similar with mental health crises, you know.

There, there are many underlying factors compounding. Like humans are incredibly resilient, but it’s when those, all those compounding factors come together, that’s, that’s when we break down. And so having, having the tools and the methods and all to like rebuild ourselves and put together a path towards healing is, is amazing.

And it takes just a true desire to do it and a perseverance of the spirit. It’s yeah, it’s so, it’s so beautiful. And I think, you know, that’s why for me, my passion is helping leaders that are making change on this planet, right? Like conscious CEOs and founders and how important. Cacao can play a role in that.

So being you a founder and all the things that you went through, you know, and I know you’re the maker of the cacao, but you’re also, you, you’re making this because you made it for yourself, but you, you’re making it for others. So how does cacao impact your life on a, on a daily basis? As a, as a CEO? Yeah.

Uh. many, many fold. Um, but so maybe let’s pick the top. Sure. Okay. Fundamentally, um, it, it grounds and anchors me in a connection to nature and ritual. It helps me slow down and take time for myself just without fail. You know, it’s the, I can’t break a cup of cacao fast. It just, it, it, it commands an attention that it.

A presence. You know, it’s just like you can’t meditate fast. . It’s, it’s not the point of it, it’s just the same with cacao. It’s, it asks you to slow down. It asks you to reflect for a moment. It, it, it asks you and it helps you to feel. And so that anchor point just increases my capacity for all my relationships, you know, in the business and outside of the business, and just helps me function way better.

Um. I also would say that Kakao helps me identify and take care of my basic needs. You know, um, which, when those are taken care of, then I can be at my optimal creativity. So, basic needs, you know, um, Not pushing myself too hard, making sure I’m getting enough sleep, you know, Cacao, unlike coffee, doesn’t, um, mask your adenosine receptors and, and just, like, hide your tiredness.

Like, it has both stimulating properties, but it also has relaxing properties. Um, sometimes I’ve taken a cup of cacao and, and been like, Okay, I need to push through now, you know, and, An hour and a half later, I was sound asleep and getting the sleep that I really needed so that I could wake up refreshed the next morning and like really perform, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a different pace and, and flow to being productive.

It takes a little adjustment, of course, but PCAL won’t support you in an unsustainable lifestyle. Instead, it’ll show you where you’re being unsustainable and then help you make the changes to become more sustainable. Um, so that’s on the energy level, you know, the mood properties of cacao just helped me show up as a more compassionate and path and empathic leader.

And that’s not just outward, that’s inward towards myself. You know, it helps me have the positive self talk and the resilience to cope with the many, many challenges I face day to day in the business. You know, it is just always something happening as other business leaders. You’re constantly being challenged.

Somewhere where you least expect it and it’s it’s how you show up to it and the heart that you bring to the situation that makes night and day difference and then Um, so that’s on the mood side of it. Um, and then also my body’s nourished we’re talking just about the minerals You know, it’s the baseline Um, it’s not the only thing obviously a healthy diet goes hand in hand with cacao Um, I also tell people too much because a bad thing, you know, it’s it’s a balanced diet of cacao Along with nourishing yourself with whole foods It’s like when all those things are taken care of, so my energy levels, my mood and the health of my body, then I can be creative.

Then the sky’s the limit. You know, I, I feel like I, I struggle to keep up with my own creativity just because we’re having so many ideas because those, those are taken care of, you know, so that’s, that’s huge. It’s so big. And I think I want to reinforce that just also with other studies that, Even or outside of cacao, but I recently came across a study from the 1950s They actually did a 30 year it was supposed to be 20 But they extended it and they took the top scientists from mit and other universities and they were all at the top tier And I think there was about 40 if I remember correctly and it’s kind of interesting.

They didn’t force anything All they did was watch And they watched these folks career and they were like the top, top, top scientists. And the whole idea was, is genius born or made? That was the idea that they were going behind. Like they’re trying to study these quote unquote geniuses to see what was happening.

And what, what they found was remarkable things that they didn’t even think they were going to find, right? Because it was an observation study. So about half of them went on to have amazing success and the other half plummeted and here are the differences. Though the half that succeeded, they averaged four to six hours in their work on a daily basis and more than lean towards four hours of intense concentration.

They also had intense play, kind of like your dance. So you can, you know, so dancing’s one of them. Climbing was one of them. Music, playing instruments, you, uh, you name it, whatever there. Other thing was it was as important. Like, so they, they said they use the word play deep or rest deep as, as much as you work deep.

Like you’re in those things, but you’re shutting those things off. And, and then in this group were like three Nobel prizes, uh, like books, studies, breakthrough things. The other group that were at the same level at the start, they all were in their 17 hour pluses in the lab, right? Like, in their passion, right?

Like, we’ve both been there too. And we’re thinking we’re doing it in the name and we’re even feeling guilty if we don’t show up. Like you said, you’re not even taking a day off because other people feel, you feel guilty. Like, so they went down that path. And they thought they were doing a good thing, right?

Because they’re pouring into the lab, they’re doing their research, but then they’re going home and some of them started getting on pills or alcohol because they couldn’t even fall asleep. They’re, you know, going home and just vegging out on a couch or overeating, all these things. And, and some even lost their life.

And many of them lost their career and basically it was the complete opposite. It was like literally like a yin and yang, white and black kind of scenario. And it came back to what we’re talking about, self care and slowing down. And that’s even why I wear this. Turtle pendant here. And, and this probably came with cacao.

Like, I think the first turtle I bought was after I had cacao and not thinking about it. And I actually, I don’t think I realized that until this moment. I was having cacao because I had just met you, and then we were shopping in West Marin. And I, uh, found a turtle. Like, a piece of art. You know, it was made in Mexico actually.

And it was all beautifully painted ornamental turtle. And I have had it on my desk ever since. And, you know, so maybe now I never put the two and two together. Like you’re talking about how the medicine speaks to us. But since then, because I’ve, you even look how fast I talk. It’s the Silicon Valley, but I was born in San Jose, California.

My father worked for a big tech company. I was in this my whole life. And finally to slow down, I want to tell you right now, you’re in a state. It’s like, More than double or triple my output in my business, but also being a family man, I’m a better father. I’m a better husband because, because of the slowing down and we think it’s scary.

And so I want to bring this back to the question for you because we think, you know, it’s the opposite. Like you’ve been in Silicon Valley. Taking time off slowing down. It’s like, Oh, that’s not going to work. Like it’s in the first answer of most executives. It’s like, well, you’re, you’re either screwing over the company or you’re not going to do it.

But I’m having the opposite experience and you’re having the opposite experience. So tell me about that yin and yang because you experienced both and how, how it’s the opposite of we thought. Yeah, I mean, it’s that slow down to go fast, right? We do our quarterly board meetings at a lot of different companies.

We go plan road trips when it’s time to like spend a bunch of hours to do some real deep creative work. You know, because it’s, it is that external inspiration that really feeds us and that when, when we’re having fun, then we’re coming to our work so much more productively. Um, and it’s also about team building.

You know, it, it’s, it’s like there is, there’s day-to-day stuff that needs to happen. You need to build really effective teams. One of the things I’ve learned is to build. Um, you know, not just have like one marketing person, one operations person, but to have two of each so that they can work together, you know, so that they can solve problems.

And then if they need me, then we can all solve problems together. But being really, really smart about your organization design and, and, but it also builds like longevity of culture. You know, people are way happier when they can work 30 hours of work instead of 40 tend to their lives. Um, and, and, and like be passionate about other things.

That’s almost one of the number one things and, and you named it is, you know, if you’re going to be passionate about a business, about entrepreneurship somewhere, pick something else that you’re equally passionate about. And it needs to be equally passionate about so that. You’re compelled to step away from your business and to tend to that.

And then that, then the nourishment you get from that compels you to go back to your business and the nourishment you get from that compels you to go back to that other passion. You just bounce back and forth between the two, you know, and, and thrives, you know, and then, and that’s like, You’re not successful as a business leader if you’re making millions, you know, it’s, you’re successful as a business leader in the lifestyle on so many people say that on, on their deathbed wet their end of life, what would they do differently?

You know, spend time with spend more time with family, spend more time in nature, you know, those are the things that people must want to do. And then, and it’s like, it’s, it’s, that keeps it connected to like our human physical bodies, you know, talking to us about healing process in our bodies and And through our bodies that keeps us connected to the earth and that’s that ultimate cycle of sustainability.

It’s like when we’re Not caring for our bodies. It’s we’re not caring for the earth because we are the earth too, you know Yeah, it’s I mean, I know it’s crazy to say but it comes from the same thing Infinity, like literally like stardust and the molecules are the same in our body as else. It’s just configured a different way to be a human being versus a tree.

Yeah. And then, and then like, you know, it’s like, yeah, exactly. Then super cosmic all of a sudden that came through the cacao, right? Right. You know, then it immediately goes back to our food systems, you know, it’s like, are we spraying chemicals? You know, are we, um, Continuing to support 500 year old systems of colonizations that just bring that problem somewhere else, you know, or are we listening to our bodies and then, you know, putting medicine into our bodies and then becoming medicine for the world.

It’s holistic. It’s beautiful. And this comes back to the feelings and feeling it and huge part of it because then we get answers from that. We’re meant to, uh, feel and have logic, right? When the mind and the heart are aligned, then our reality becomes is what I was saying that I’ve always, I always thought it’s because that’s, you know, it’s that combo.

It’s not one or the other. If we get too heady, we can lose it. And then even you can be in the heart and you feel the answer, but then you still have to use. your mind and you did this, you felt in your heart, a decision to bring four cacao to the world. Then you mechanically scientifically, like with your mind started putting the machines in place to bring the love into it.

You source all of the cacao in such an amazing way, getting the farmers, taking care of them, finding ways to create the whole chain so that you can keep love in the product so that when we’re. having in our mouth and we get that effect. And it took mind and heart. And I would say also gut, you know, healthy gut and nourishment.

So, you know, what we’re talking about is in contrast to what is out there. You know, they, there are so many founders out there that are skipping meals or You know, getting their way, you know, getting their fast food delivered to them or whatever, grabbing it. And then they’re now depleting instead of rising up, right?

So lowering our energy vibration rather than then raising it up. And, and so I guess I want to come to the thought that you brought, like when you have a daily habit with cacao and you start watching, because then it comes to mindfulness. What am I putting in my body? What am I doing with my time? How am I slaying it down and bringing cacao?

Into our life on a regular basis. What would that regimen look like for someone that’s just getting started? You know, is it going to be? That we can get them set up because you know, I know for me now it’s much different I buy like on the five pound increments, you know but if someone’s getting started what would be a a good regimen to get that daily thing and then like you said sustaining it over six months or a year to see The deep integration.

Yeah. Um, so we have a whole bunch of different cacaos, some of them pure, some of them with superfoods. Um, every single one of those I made for a specific purpose as at a particular point in my life because it was supporting what I was going through. So, I encourage people to actually try all of our different cacaos, we have a variety kit, so that you can see what resonates most.

People often ask us, well, which one should I eat? And it’s like, sit with it, and see which one is delicious to you, see which one you’re inspired to keep working with, and then, you know, get a pound bag of that, and, and start. Having, you know, for some people it’s daily, for some people it’s every other day, you know, just figuring out what the routine is where it makes sense.

You know, some people are having a lot of other stimulants like coffee. Other people are already just having, you know, but there’s a whole spectrum, so I can’t really prescribe how to do it. It’s, it’s about the, the relationship, seeing how it fits, It’s figuring out what dosage. Some people, uh, are very very sensitive to cacao, they need just a tiny bit.

Some people, um, the cacao is like massively helping replenish minerals, and they can have a lot, and their body actually craves a lot. So it’s, you know, we have recommended dosages, but it’s all, that’s a starting point, and you can try and adjust from there. And, I also like to, when I have a cup of cacao, like, I ask it.

Like, Um, you know, how can I relate with you more effectively? Um, what dosage should I have right now? Like, any question, just like you’re talking to a human. You can bring that to your cup of cacao, and then, and then some meditation practice. You listen, and it’s, it’s especially the insights that, aren’t things that I could make up, that’s when I know I’m getting an accurate answer.

And that’s guided my own relationship with cacao over 10 years. You know, I’ve had moments where I’ve, um, tested if I’m addicted to it and, and then like tried to have none, and then seen, looked at my mind chemistry and then looked at my body symptoms. And it’s actually not a very… I would not classify it as an addictive substance at all, but I’m just happier day to day when I have it and it has a positive impact day to day.

So that’s actually really freeing too is knowing that it’s not an addictive relationship. And being open to change and fluctuation and you know, it’s, it’s sometimes people have a bunch of cacao for a while and then the season changes and all of a sudden they want just a little bit of cacao. There’s nothing wrong with that.

And that’s that depth of relationship to see this as we were talking about cooking food. Thank you. You know, that’s yes, cooking food takes time, but within that, there’s so much beauty in the relationship, like taking time to chop a carrot, you know, rather than buying pre chopped carrots, you know, all those, all those little aspects of preparing food, it’s putting the love in and, and you just can’t replace home cooking in that way.

There’s, there’s a nourishment that comes beyond just the physical food itself. I’m, I’m with you and you know, and I have, and you know, to your point about addiction, I, so I’ve done like other cleanses just periodically through this period of healing. And then I, you know, do 12 days and you know, not have it.

And then even after that, then I did less just to experiment with it. And then during this period for me and my recovery, I found that, you know, a daily dose is still what I need, you know, and, but I did play with it. It, you know, what, what’s going on was my, and just listening to my body, you know, And what, what it’s saying, but as I’m building my business and wanting to make big change on this, in this planet, it feeds me.

It, like you said, it helps with my creativity. It helps me with so many other things. And I think even all my choices, like even coming to the, to the turtle to be able to slow down. Cause before when I heard Jules say slow down to go fast, I think that’s a Chinese proverb. And I thought that was the most moronic thing I’ve ever heard.

Because I’m like, slow down, go fast, what are you talking about? But now I can actually feel that. So, it’s giving that time for contemplation. And, and then that’s, for me, this brought this in, this relationship. And it does. I, I too find that when I’m drinking cacao, it forces me to sit down. And, and so I live behind, uh, or I guess in front of a forest.

And when I, off my back porch, I’m just looking at all the trees and I will sit there and I’ll make a cow and just stare into the trees and then, and I’m not even thinking about business, but then I’ll go to my office and I’ll solve problems or I’ll get on a meeting and make these things. And not saying that that was at a zero before cacao, but now it’s on like exponential level, you know, for our 10 year anniversary, actually my whole All my upper level staff took at least a week off.

Um, some of us took two and a half to three weeks off. Um, and, and some of us, we actually went rafting down the Grand Canyon and it was two and a half weeks without any input from devices. It was just nature and paddling on a river, having adventure and the, the level of like, mental defragmentation that happened was incredible.

And it was just like a complete recharge to like, come back, you know, and and be inspired and bring our full figure to the business again. It’s important to do things like that. Like I’m coming out of that trip and being like, I should really do two weeks at least every two years. Yeah. We’ll see if I can keep it up, you know, and, but it’s also, I think, testament to the culture and the sustainability of the business model that we’ve taken that, you know, the CEO, CEO and our head of marketing and our head of operations can take that time off.

Because the whole organization knows how to support itself. So beautiful. It’s so beautiful. This it’s so beyond the end product. It’s, it’s all of it encompassing and that’s what makes it such an amazing company. Yeah. And it’s, you know, it’s, Like you can call it a lifestyle brand, um, and, but it’s, it’s like that, that lifestyle it’s, it really matters, you know, just as much as the product it’s, it’s showing people that this way of being in business as possible, this way of not cutting corners and compromising in our supply chain and squeezing the farmers out of the picture, whatever it is, you know, that’s, that’s, The cultural aspect of running a business is so huge and the impact that we have on every person that works on our business and then also the resonant frequency that it puts out is not to be, uh, ignored.

So, so beautiful. I’m so thankful and I just wanted to say that, you know, this is an amazing time we’ve got to spend and having this interview and cover so much ground and, and. You know, whether you fully know it or not, but the more business, more life community. You’ve been a part of in the undercurrents, you know, and you have shown up you’ve come to a couple of the events and led some Ceremonies with us, but even when you’re not there, you know It was you’ve always been there like because everyone knows how much a cacao ice I’m outspoken and when something changes my life, I tell as many people and so It’s, it’s really exciting to have this conversation with you today and really like honor that relationship and, and then take it to a whole another level.

I want this to inspire others to bring a relationship with cacao and themselves into their life. And for those leaders watching this. To bring it into their business and see the change that it makes as it has for me and as it has for you. So I just want to thank you so much Jonas for spending this time with me today Yeah, thanks for your vision Steve to get together and to talk about More Business More Life®.

You know, it’s It’s truly an honor It’s beautiful. Thank you so much for watching or listening, however, digesting this content. And you understand I both care so much. If you’re on our newsletter, the More Business More Life® newsletter, then reply and let us know what was the most valuable thing. What questions do you have about cacao?

What questions do you have in general about business for either of I and guess what we reply So we will reply to all those things and if you’re not on our newsletter Then all you have to do is text wow to seventy two thousand seven two triple zero seven two zero zero zero text WOW, and then it’ll prompt you to join and it’s free, The More Business More Life® Newsletter and then we will be here to interact with you.

Yes, we listened to all those replies. And again, thank you so much for listening or watching and as always remember Choose gratitude and create freedom.